Lutheran Pastor and Slander Expert Paul T. McCain "Replies" to My Paper on the Communion of Saints

As of the last several months, about all that Pastor McCain could do in "response" to my work was to write tiny put-down posts on my blog or at Josh Strodtbeck's blog. He even noted (with seeming satisfied pride) that he had never mentioned me by name on his blog. Well, obviously that is no longer true. So let's see what the good Reverend has to say. His words will be in blue.

* * * * *

Dr. James White offers a helpful refutation [link] of the popular way among Roman Catholics to defend their practice of praying to the saints.

I find it highly amusing that Rev. McCain has tried to insult me in the past by making out that I am "the Catholic version of James White" and suchlike, but as soon as White agrees with him he cites him against me, even though his argument was pathetic ("my enemy's enemy is my friend"). I have already made several replies to White's efforts. Rev. McCain wrote, for example, the following on a Lutheran blog, c. 22 March 2007:

Warning!

Dave Armstrong is one of those sad persons who apparently spend nearly every waking moment on their Internet site. He is a Roman Catholic apologist who culls through the Internet looking for any chance he can to pounce on people who dare breathe a word of protest against what "Holy Mother" Rome has to say on anything. As is the case with most apologists like him, he tends to get his facts pretty screwed up.

If you engage him, it is akin to sticking your hand on flypaper, he and his groupies like to swarm.

He is the Roman version of a guy like James White, who has a similar style.

Dave Armstrong is not interested in "helpful discussion" but only attacking non-Romanists. I informed him that he is unwelcome to post on any of my blog sites. He only wants a platform to spread his false teachings. [he is welcome on my blog, any time]

Just a word of caution.

His foil here is a Roman Catholic layman named Armstrong who self-published a book titled, "The One Minute Apologist."

Nice try, but, um, no cigar. It is published by Sophia Institute Press, a very reputable and well known Catholic publishing house that specializes in classics (and I received an advance of $3000: that would be quite a feat indeed for a self-published book. Who would write the check, I wonder?). One would think that a "reviewer" could get his basic facts about the book reviewed straight, but no such luck.

I always get a chuckle out of this "self-published" charge (Bishop White has stated the same long after it was demonstrably untrue), since I'm now on my fourth published book with a "real" publisher (Our Sunday Visitor: the largest Catholic publisher, put out my New Catholic Answer Bible -- co-author: Dr. Paul Thigpen).

And my previous two books with Sophia are both consistently on the bestseller list on amazon (Catholic theology category). The Catholic Verses is, right now as I write, sitting at #12 on the list of Top 100, with a #6,164 sales rank. A Biblical Defense of Catholicism is #26, with a #13,816 sales rank, while The New Catholic Answer Bible is at #88 and has a #45,505 rank.

Rev. McCain then cites (I believe) the entire "review" by White. He shows no awareness that I have already disposed of it in reply, even though his post was written a few days after my reply.

Nor does he make any attempt of his own to actually deal with my biblically-soaked reasoning. True to form, he simply asserts and proclaims the Lutheran view without argument. This is in line with his stated antipathy to apologetics:

Perhaps we would do well to distinguish between apologetics and polemics. Lutherans have done polemics since the "we condemn" of the Lutheran Confessions. Apologetics? Not so much.

When I read Dave Armstrong's blog, or James White's blog, I frankly find myself getting bored, in a hurry. Both men are self-proclaimed and self-annointed [sic] "apologists" and yet they seem to spend a lot of their time attacking other apologists and arguing with how other apologists argue, and then debating who said what, about what, when, and where, etc. It is really finally absurd.

I think Lutherans much prefer simply to proclaim, and confess, and teach and let the truth speak for itself.

That is not to say that we do not do polemics. This is a perfectly fine and even necessary thing to do, but apologetics? Well, like I said, not so much.

(5-30-07, on Josh Strodtbeck's blog)

Not impressive . . . thus far, everyone who has recently taken a crack at this topic in reply to my apologetic has either ignored my arguments altogether (Rev. McCain), or dealt with one or two and ignored all the rest (White) or thoroughly misunderstood even what my arguments were, as shown by their "counter-reply" (Doug Mabry and some other anti-Catholics also).

Shame shame shame . . . how I long for a critique that actually understands its target and offers a real challenge: something that is actually engaging and stimulating to reply to.

It seems that Rev. McCain's impulse to finally mention me on his blog has something to do with a marked dislike of my person. On the same discussion thread (the next day) he "proclaimed":

By the way, this particular post and thread has set Dave "I'm a Roman Catholic apologist" Armstrong off on what can only be described as a temper tantrum becoming a three year old. It is however a very good illustration with the problem of most of this on-line "apologetics" work going on. Dave tried to bait me into an argument, one of his favorite tactics, and then failing to do that he didn't take kindly to some observations I made about his blog site and his apologetics methodologies and then the mud really started to fly.

Armstrong is a convert from what he calls "Evangelicalism" though admitted to be a member of an ELCA congregatio[n] at some point or another. Now, as is so often the case, he must breathlessly, with near desperation, "defend" Romanism against any perceived slight. The funny thing is that he can't see that the very things he finds as faults with others and how they express themselves, are all precisely the same way he conducts his "apologetics ministry" only at about a multiplying factor of ten.

It finally gives me a good case of the giggles.

Pray for this man. He is a pastor and presumably guides his congregation in the pastoral sense of spiritual oversight. God used Balaam's ass and frogs (one of the plagues on the Egyptians), so I'm sure He can and does mightily use Pastor McCain and blesses his ministry, but hopefully, juvenile expressions and "thinking" like this are the exception to the rule in his discourse and counseling and preaching. But it may not be, for all we know. Pray! Ask the Blessed Virgin Mary and other saints to intercede before God for this man, that he may cease providing scandalous example of the behavior of a man of the cloth. It isn't just a "Protestant problem." Divisive, overly-sectarian, propagandistic-like antics of any Christian has some adverse effect on all Christians insofar as those who read him project his attitudes onto all of us. It's not good (least of all for the one doing it).

Dialogue With a Reformed Baptist Presuppositionalist, Round Three (vs. John Knight)

Michael Polanyi (1891-1976)


See Part One and Part Two. John's words will be in blue; his older words in green and my older words in purple.

* * * * *

At the same time, the presuppositionalist offers the unbeliever the benefits which flow from acknowledging the fear of the Lord as the beginning of knowledge, wisdom, & understanding. He points to the riches of knowledge that are to be found in Jesus Christ. As Augustine put it, “Without belief there is no understanding.”

How does one have a discussion at all with someone, if one requires them to accept one’s own conclusion in the first place? That would mean that there is no rational discussion to be had at all, because in effect one is required to say, “you have to be a Christian [my position] before we can even begin this discussion.” So the situation reduces to blind faith from the outset, since the Christian cannot discuss anything with the atheist until the atheist first becomes a Christian (or, adopts Christian presuppositions, which amounts to the same thing, in terms of the discussion at hand).

When we look at Bahnsen’s debates, or those of some others, we can see from the example of very good presuppositionalist debaters that this interpretation of the Van Tillian approach is misguided. The approach is emphatically not to say, “You must accept my presuppositions before I will even talk to you.”

Rather, the approach is to show the unbeliever two things: (1) Unbelief leads to ignorance & irrationality.

I've been doing that for years, so we agree on that.

(2) The Christian world-view provides a foundation for knowledge. In other words: “Premise A leads to ignorance & logical contradiction. Premise B leads to logical coherence & empirical knowledge.” The actual work of demonstrating the cases is, of course, non-trivial.

Good.

*** CLICK ON "Tolle, lege!" immediately below to finish this article ***



Dave distinguishes between two propositions:

1) Whoever does math, logic, science, language, and makes moral claims is ultimately relying on the inherent knowledge and presuppositions that God gave them [ability to reason, senses, presupposing basic tenets of knowledge and existence of ourselves and the universe, assuming the general “uniformitarianism” and predictability of life and nature, etc.], whether aware of it or not.

2) Whoever does math, logic, science, language, and makes moral claims must deliberately, consciously adopt overtly Christian presuppositions before it is even possible to do these things.

Agreed. That is exactly the distinction that Bahnsen, Frame & others make.

Excellent. Then we do agree on that, too.

The very idea of “presuppositional apologetics” is to force the unbeliever — through reason & example — to acknowledge that he implicitly relies on Christian presuppositions when using math, science, language, moral claims, and so on. This approach depends on showing the unbeliever the implications of his false world-view — logical contradiction & ignorance — in contrast to the implications of the Christian world-view.

If by that you mean something like the above, then I agree. Perhaps this particular dispute, then, turns on clarifying definitions and how terms and concepts are being used and applied. Doesn't mean there are no differences, but it is good to see this commonality. But then again, I myself am not strictly an "evidentialist". I draw from the insights of several different schools of thought in apologetics.

Paul even equates philosophy with “empty deception” when that philosophy is “according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” (Col 2:8,9) Their speculations “futile” — that is, their theories & philosophies are pointless, useless, ineffectual. (Romans 1:21)

Oftentimes, yes. But not always; else why would Paul bother to cite two pagans in his Sermon on Mars Hill?

I would argue that Paul could quote pagan philosophers because those pagan philosophers had (unknowingly) relied on Christian presuppositions in order to attain those insights. Paul turns it back on them showing how their insights contradict their premises. For example, Paul highlights the altar to “the Unknown God,” with its inherent contradiction between ignorance of this unknown god & sufficient knowledge to properly honor him.

Very interesting . . .

The problem for the pagan is that, whatever insights he may have, he cannot justify them on pagan grounds. In that sense, his speculations are futile, unable to rationally justify his knowledge-claims.

Okay.

* * *

If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty.

~ Ludwig Wittgenstein

As the foregoing examples show, evidence does not speak for itself. It must be interpreted within a framework. This framework (or paradigm [Kuhn] or world-view [Kant] or language-game [Wittgenstein] or web of belief [Quine]) evaluates the evidence & gives it weight & meaning. Different frameworks reach different conclusions. How can we know which conclusion is correct? Obviously, we can only know which conclusion is correct if we know which framework is correct, but how can we make that determination?

Obviously, an atheist can criticize Asatru on atheistic grounds & find that it fails the epistemological criteria of his atheistic world-view. An Asatruar can evaluate Christianity & find it wanting on Odinistic grounds. A Christian can examine atheism & reject it as false, contradicting Christian truths. Such are arguments are both circular & pointless.

To say that atheism is true because it can reject theistic religions on the basis of atheistic criteria is not satisfactory in any way. Christianity is coherent on Christian grounds; does that fact in itself prove that Christianity is true? How then do we resolve a conflict of world-views?

First, let's take a closer look at the evaluative frameworks that we use to judge evidence. Such a framework includes -- indeed, it hinges on -- ideas that are granted "revisionary immunity," core beliefs that are held to be true under all circumstances, which will not be revised no matter what the evidence. Such beliefs are necessary, for all judgments depend on them. Judgments turn on these core beliefs -- as it were like hinges on which those turn.

I agree, pretty much.

Ludwig Wittgenstein, the most important language philosopher of the 20th Century, called such beliefs "indubitables." There are certain propositions in any language game or system of beliefs in order even to have an intelligible doubt. He made numerous observations of this sort:

One cannot make experiments if there are not some things that one does not doubt.
That is to say, the questions that we raise and our doubts depend on the fact that some propositions are exempt from doubt, are as it were like hinges on which those turn. That is to say, it belongs to the logic of our scientific investigations that certain things are indeed not doubted.

Doubting and non-doubting behavior. There is the first only if there is the second.
If I wanted to doubt whether this was my hand, how could I avoid doubting whether the word "hand" has any meaning? So that is something I seem to know after all. But more correctly: The fact that I use the word "hand" and all the other words in my sentence without a second thought, indeed that I should stand before the abyss if I wanted so much as to try doubting their meanings -- shows that absence of doubt belongs to the essence of the language-game, that the question "How do I know" drags out the language-game, or else does away with it.

Knowledge is in the end based on acknowledgement. Our knowledge forms an enormous system. And only within this system has a particular bit the value we give it. Certain propositions seem to underlie all questions and all thinking. Doesn't the whole language-game rest on this kind of certainty? Or: isn't this "certainty" (already) presupposed in the language-game? Namely by virtue of the fact that one is not playing the game, or is playing it wrong, if one does not recognize objects with certainty.

Something must be taught us as a foundation. When a child learns language it learns at the same time what is to be investigated and what not. Doubt itself rests only on what is beyond doubt. A doubt without an end is not even a doubt. The child learns by believing the adult. Doubt comes after belief. If you are not certain of any fact, you cannot be certain of the meaning of your words either. If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty.

These reflections make it clear that one must begin with a set of core beliefs in order to make judgments possible. If I say, "That is a red barn," the statement presupposes that I know what "red" means & what a "barn" might be, among other things. To evaluate my claim, you must also know what the words mean -- as well as the grammar of the sentence. Even to doubt my claim requires that you take something for granted. "A doubt without an end is not even a doubt."

These insights, like those of Polanyi, Kuhn, Plantinga & others, revealed the failure of the Enlightenment project to establish human knowledge on neutral ground, on a blank slate. The Enlightenment presupposed that objective knowledge required neutral grounds -- and failed as a result.

Reasoning, then, does not begin with a blank slate. "Knowledge is in the end based on acknowledgement." We cannot begin reasoning, doubting & evaluating without a foundation taken to be true. We cannot argue without presupposing the truth of certain statements.

However, as we have seen, there is no agreement over which propositions should be regarded core beliefs or foundational truths. This turns out to be a problem for at least two reasons:

I think this is all great insight. I would also recommend Cardinal Newman's Grammar of Assent, that takes the same general approach to epistemology.

All knowledge, all reasoning, all judgment takes place within some framework. (LW: "Our knowledge forms an enormous system. And only within this system has a particular bit the value we give it.") And each system depends on certain core propositions. Some of these propositions may not be held explicitly -- they may be what Michael Polanyi called "tacit rules" but they form the basis of all our judgments.

However, there is obviously no agreement over which propositions should be regarded core beliefs or foundational truths. This lack of agreement turns out to be a problem for at least two reasons.

First, differences in identifying these core beliefs can alter the arrow of falsification, even among people who seem to share the same beliefs. Suppose that Burz & Kugash both believe that Sauron is a god & that the gods are immortal. Following the War of the Ring, they encounter convincing evidence that Sauron is dead. (A giant red eyeball on a pike, perhaps.)

"Agggk," says Burz, "Sauron is no god."

"Blasphemer!" replies Kugash, "All this proves is that some gods die."

So, even if we consider just two beliefs, it is unclear which proposition is falsified. (This problem undermines Popperian falsificationism.) In practice, people actually hold innumerable interconnected beliefs, and may reject or revise one of several beliefs in the face disconfirming evidence.

According to W.V.O. Quine, those beliefs that are less central to a "web of belief" are most subject to rejection or revision. Beliefs which are closer to the core in one's web of belief have more connections to other beliefs. Altering or removing those beliefs would have a larger impact on the web of belief, implying a larger shock to one's world-view. This tendency to revise beliefs that are less central to one's world-view Quine summarized as his "maxim of minimum mutilation."

One can see evidence of this tendency at work in areas relevant to our discussion. Over the last 50 or 60 years, theories of terrestrial, undirected abiogenesis have had a nasty habit of failing. (For example, I don't think anyone has offered an adequate answer for the problem of AMP synthesis.) One reaction to these difficulties might to abandon the naturalistic assumptions of such a model & embrace some variety of theism. Another would be to posit aliens who seeded the rest of the universe with life. The latter position was actually adopted by Francis Crick (who won the Nobel Prize for discovering the double-helix structure of DNA) though he later recanted.

Second, the lack of agreement in core beliefs means that evidence is subject to evaluation by standards that vary from one world-view to the next. Differences in core beliefs include disagreements in epistemology (the theory of knowledge) as well as disagreements in metaphysics (the theory of reality) & ethics.

One may consider, for example, the differences between G.W.F. Hegel & David Hume. Hegel represents a strain of thought that emphasizes continuity & unity, in which statements are merely provisional. Logical analysis means interacting a thesis with an antithesis, an interaction that is resolved in a synthesis, moving us from one unstable equilibrium to a new & higher level of unstable equilibrium.

Hume, of course, is a more familiar figure, representing a strain of thought with a discreteness orientation that emphasizes contrast. Logical progress involves a once-for-all sorting of propositions in which claims are determined to be "consistent" or else "contradictory."

But now imagine that we resurrect Hume & Hegel so that they can sort out their differences. How will they go about it? The problem, of course, is that they can't even agree on how to resolve their dispute. Hume complains that Hegel doesn't make clear distinctions ("I don't even know what you're saying") while Hegel complains that Hume "falsifies the whole" by focusing on just a little piece of the truth.

The poor guys can't even agree on which metaphors to use. Hegel is constantly comparing things to a bud which becomes a blossom which becomes a flower. Hume, on the other hand, pictures the universe as a billiards table, with discrete object interacting with another discrete object.

Other divisions are just as deep. A conversation between, for example, Immanuel Kant & Soren Kierkegaard would quickly bog down. Kant would complain that Kierkegaard was to involved & couldn't be detached enough to answer the question. Kierkegaard would reply that Kant was a mere spectator & could not really understand the question because he didn't experience it. Conceptually, neither would speak in a language the other could understand.

The conflicts between these different world-views cannot be settled in the same way that we settle questions about the price of eggs at the grocery store. The parties to the debate cannot even agree on the standards to use in answering simple questions. The debate between the Christian & the atheist threatens to devolve into that kind of stalemate.

Is there another way to answer the question?

I can't find anything where we would disagree significantly enough to make a comment!

“We know more than we can tell.”

~Michael Polanyi

“Our knowledge forms an enormous system. And only within this system has a particular bit the value we give it.”

~Ludwig Wittgenstein

In Part One, I observed that, despite claims to the contrary, there is an abundance of evidence for the existence of God. However, theists & atheists disagree on how to evaluate the evidence. As an example, I argued that the Big Bang is evidence for the existence of God — but only within a more or less theistic world-view. The presuppositions of the committed atheist cause him to insist that non-theistic explanations should be preferred.

I disagree here. I think that both theist and atheist can utilize science as we know it to determine that the Big Bang makes it just as rational and plausible to believe in God as to not do so. It can't absolutely prove there is a God, but it can bring one to a place to see that this belief is a better explanation for the universe than any other: and that based on science alone before one even gets to philosophy per se.

I further developed this theme with the examples of Intelligent Design. Life on Earth displays evidence of design or not based on one’s presuppositions. Atheists presuppose a world without design & interpret individual cases in light of that governing presupposition. Christians & believing Jews presuppose a world guided according to a larger purpose, and interpret individual cases accordingly.

I would say (because I love both these arguments and consider them powerful theistic evidences) that the atheist explanation of design is thoroughly incoherent and makes no sense. It is implausible in the extreme, and normally if we feel that way about an argument then we should be very cautious in our claims about it. Thus, the atheist, lacking any plausible alternative explanation of Design, ought to be honest with himself (from his own presuppositions of naturalistic science, etc.) and admit that the theistic explanation is at the very least no less rational or plausible than what he believes. This is how I apply these arguments in my own apologetic. And I have debated both scientists and professional philosophers in these areas.

Likewise, atheists reject historical accounts of the Resurrection of Jesus as inaccurate or unreliable or fanciful because they believe that no reliable account could record a clear evidence of a man rising from the dead. Given their presuppositions, men do not rise from the dead.

Exactly. Their premise is anti-supernaturalism (that being the case; obviously they would reject the Resurrection out of hand). They rule out the miraculous before they begin. And so one must attack their premise and show that it is untenable.

On Christian presuppositions, there is no reason that God should not raise men from the dead when it suits his purpose. The historical evidence thus confirms the divine role & power of Jesus of Nazareth — on Christian presuppositions.

Sure.

In Part Two, I tried to explain these differences of interpretation in terms of conflicting set of presuppositions. In particular, I highlighted the necessary nature of presuppositions. All reasoning, even all doubting, begins with presuppositions. The idea that we shouldn’t presuppose anything turns out to be a misguided presupposition.

I couldn't agree more. Like I said, as a Socratic in method, I very much resonate with this emphasis, because the Socratic is constantly critiquing premises in opponents.

In Part Three, I argued that all world-views, atheist or not, are insulated against empirical falsification, since beliefs on the outer fringes of the web of belief can be sacrificed to preserve core presuppositions. Moreover, disagreements between world-views face the challenge arising from radically different standards of proof & knowledge.

Yep.

So, where exactly does that leave us? Presuppositions are necessary to thought, reason, doubt, & argumentation, manifesting themselves at the outset of our inquiries. They shape our interpretation of empirical data, & guide our choice of questions, analogies, & modes of proof. Conversation across radically different world-views is akin to two people speaking completely different languages.

Is there no possibility of discourse? I want to suggest that there is a rational way to resolve these differences…

As seen, I agree with most of this. I think our differences would come down to mostly disagreement on the place of natural theology and the traditional theistic arguments.

Thanks for the input. What you have presented is great food for thought for my readers.

Ecumenical Video Common Ground to Air on TBN: 14 July 2007

I wrote about this dynamite presentation and ecumenical effort in an earlier post, because I am the author of the Study Guide that will soon be available for the video. If you are at all interested in ecumenism and Protestant-Catholic dialogue and unity, watch this. I guarantee that you won't be disappointed, and will be greatly edified.

5 PM Eastern Standard Time

4PM Central

3 PM Mountain

2 PM Pacific

Here is an honest conversation between two deeply committed men of faith, an Evangelical pastor and a Catholic priest, about their shared faith in Jesus Christ. I recommend this resource to all who are interested in Christian unity, in keeping with a prayer of Jesus himself that his disciples be one as he and the Father are one, so that the world may believe.

--Timothy George, Dean, Beeson Divinity School
Christianity Today, Senior Editor

An astonishingly honest, lucid, and winsome conversation about what unites and divides Catholics and Protestants. Father Riccardo and Pastor Andrews exemplify the kind of encounter made possible and necessary by the fact that we are, in the words of "Evangelicals and Catholics Together," 'brothers and sisters in Christ.'

--Rev. Richard John Neuhaus
Editor in Chief, First Things

"Informed Brother" Kevin Johnson is Laughing "His Head Off" Over The One-Minute Apologist

[source]

I should have seen this coming, but I admit it caught me by surprise. I get blasted all the time for writing lengthy posts and supposedly saying nothing in them, or being a sophist, etc. ad nauseum. Now, "Reformed Catholic" Kevin Johnson goes to the other extreme and blasts me for writing a book with two-page entries. The underlying assumptions Kevin must have in order to reduce a book (likely not read at all) to a laughingstock are so absurd that I need not even delve into those in order to shoot them down. A few moments' reflection will disabuse anyone of such foolish notions.

So what am I supposed to do? Perhaps I should take a survey of all the intelligent, serious, wise Christians out there like Kevin Johnson, so that I can get the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval for word length? I'll just send out a thousand or so surveys and average them out and then stick religiously to how many words the average turns out to be? Don't wanna have too many or too few words!!! But if I check with Kevin first, then maybe I can produce yet another bestselling book that (as an extra bonus) won't have people laughing their heads off from the east to the west.

Ironically, the book wasn't even my idea in the first place. Like my last one, The Catholic Verses, the origination of the concept for the book was entirely from my publisher, Sophia Institute Press. Anyway, here is Kevin's ultra-charitable "review" of my book (and you thought James White's hit piece "review" lacked substance?), complete with an accompanying Avril Lavigne video that is supposed to have some relation to what I do:

When I see things on the Internet by Roman Catholic Internet apologists like the “One Minute Apologist”–what can an informed brother do other than just laugh his head off? I mean, really.

I continue to draw from pop culture to illustrate the absurdity of such an approach–as if this would ever convince anyone who is familiar with the relevant issues let alone handle the issues in question with any sort of respect for other opinions or even the truth of the matter. When you’ve got someone in your face demanding that their way is the better way, that your current church is fraught with all sorts of problems, and that their church is the only answer to all your problems–’think you need a new one’? No, just play this Avril Lavigne song/video for them. It’s the same song, different verse.

[in comments]

The last thing we need is rabid apologists for any point of view. While my initial critique was leveled at certain Roman Catholic “Internet apologists”–it could just as easily be leveled at other partisan groups with similar goals (including Protestants and other non-Catholics)–out to convert the already converted.

The sort of (Roman) Catholic I learn from is one that participates in the broader wisdom of the Church over the ages in the Western world. The sort that doesn’t have to argue people into anything because the very gravitas of their view and life is centered in the wisdom that the Church has provided her children over the centuries through a strong Western and Christocentric view of all things.

Since Kevin wants to play games with videos, I thought I would provide a little something to think about, too: Bob Dylan reciting his poem in honor of Woody Guthrie (from around 1963):

Biblical Evidence (Suggested by Protestants Like Jonathan Edwards) For Saints in Heaven Being Aware of Earthly Events

(John Piper is a very well known Reformed Baptist pastor)

Anti-Catholic Baptist apologist James White has sought to deny that saints ion heaven are aware of earthly happenings, by denying that Hebrews 12:1 ("surrounded by a cloud of witnesses") has anything to do with this notion, and dismissing any contention that the souls who pray under the altar (Revelation 6:9-10) are aware of what happens on earth. I have responded to him already. In his latest "reply" to my new book, The One-Minute Apologist, White reiterates, in his comment on Revelation 6:9-10 (bolding added):

These are martyrs "who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained." It is easy to see the role these play in the text: the Christians to which the book is being sent by God are undergoing just this kind of persecution. Their cry to God is simple: how long will justice be delayed in avenging their deaths? The response is that they are given white robes (evidently they didn't need a trip through purgatory before being pure), and they are told to wait a little while longer. There was a certain number of martyrs yet to be made (hard to read this without seeing God's sovereignty, for, "blessed in the sight of God is the death of His saints"), and they are to wait until that time is completed.

Now, this is the contextual meaning of the passage. Where does Hahn, and by extension, Armstrong, get all the rest of these assertions? Where is the evidence that these souls have knowledge of current events on earth? Where is the evidence that they have communication with anyone on earth? They are not aware of events on earth; and to say they have "foreknowledge" of the future is to say nothing more than they know God is just and will punish sin, which, of course, means we all have foreknowledge of the very same kind. They are informed about the fact that there will be more martyrs, they do not have this information naturally (which they would have known were they observing events on earth).

. . . Ironically, the Roman Catholic apologist, who so often refers to "private interpretation" as all you can have as a Protestant, has nothing more himself, in fact. And when we examine his use of Scripture, we find it strained, even tortured, and anything but compelling.

Today I have found some interesting material that would contradict this understanding, from various Protestants. Well-known Protestant activist and prolific author Randy Alcorn, for example, writes with great insight on this question:

6. In heaven, we will be aware of at least some of what is happening on earth.

Another controversial concept, yet again the Bible confirms it:

a. The martyrs in heaven appear to know what is still happening on earth (Rev. 6:9-11).

b. When Babylon is brought down, an angel points to events happening on earth and says "Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you" (Rev. 18:20). Since he specifically addresses them, the clear implication is that the saints in heaven are watching and listening to what is happening on earth.

c. There is "the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting Hallelujah" and praising God for specific events of judgment that have just taken place (Rev. 19:1-5). Again, the saints in heaven are clearly observing what is happening on earth.

d. When heaven's saints return with Christ to set up his millennial kingdom (Rev. 19:11-14), it seems strange to think they would have been ignorant of the culmination of human history taking place on earth. The picture of saints in heaven blissfully unaware of what is transpiring on earth, where God and his angels (and they themselves) are about to return for the ultimate battle in the history of the universe, after which Christ will be crowned king, contradicts clear indications in the context. But even apart from such indications, this notion of heavenly ignorance seems ludicrous.

e. When brought back to earth from heaven, Samuel was aware of what Saul had been doing and what he'd failed to do on earth (1 Sam. 28:18). Unless he was specially "briefed" on this, it follows he must have been already aware of it.

f. When called from heaven to the transfiguration on earth, Moses and Elijah talked with Jesus about his death about to happen in Jerusalem (Luke 9:31). They seem aware of the context they stepped into, of what was transpiring on earth.

g. Hebrews 12:1 tells us to "run the race marked out for us," creating the mental picture of the Greek competitions which were watched intently by throngs of engrossed fans, sitting high up in the ancient stadiums. The "great cloud of witnesses" he speaks of are clearly the saints who've gone before us, whose accomplishments (some of them recorded in the previous chapter) on the playing field are now past. The imagery seems to suggest those saints, the spiritual "athletes" of old, are now watching us and cheering us on from the stands of heaven. (The witnesses are said to "surround" us, not merely to have preceded us.)

h. The unfolding drama of redemption, awaiting Christ's return, is currently happening on earth. Earth is center court, center stage, awaiting the consummation of Christ's return and the setting up of his kingdom. Logically, this seems a compelling reason to think those in heaven might see what is happening on the earth. If in heaven we will be concerned with what God is concerned with, and his focus is on the spiritual battle on earth, why would we not witness his works there?

i. Christ, in heaven, watches closely what transpires on earth, especially in the lives of God's people (Rev. 2-3). If the Sovereign God's attentions are on earth, why wouldn't those of his heavenly subjects be? When a great war is transpiring, is anyone in the home country uninformed and unaware of it? When a great drama is taking place, do those who know the writer, producer and cast-and have great interest in the outcome-refrain from watching?

j. Angels saw Christ on earth (1 Tim. 3:16). There are clear indications angels know what is happening on earth (Luke 1:26; 1 Cor. 11:10). If angels, why not saints? Don't the people of God in heaven have as much vested interests in the spiritual events happening on earth as do angels?

k. Christ said "there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine who do not need to" (Luke 15:7). Similarly, "there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents" (Luke 15:10). Who is doing this rejoicing in heaven, in the presence of angels? Doesn't it logically include the saints in heaven, who would of all people appreciate the joy and wonder of human conversion? (If they rejoice over conversions happening on earth, then obviously they must be aware of what is happening on earth.)

7. In heaven, saints will pray to God and ask things of him, and perhaps intercede for those on earth.

a. Christ, the God-man, is in heaven interceding for people on earth (Rom. 8:34). In at least one case, then, a person who has died and gone to heaven is now praying for those on earth. The martyrs in heaven in Rev. 6:10 pray to God, asking him to take specific action on earth. They are praying for God's justice on the earth, which may have intercessory implications for their brethren now suffering on earth. The sense of connection and loyalty to and concern for the body of Christ of which saints in heaven are part with the saints on earth, would likely be enhanced by being in heaven, not eliminated by it (Eph. 3:15). In any case, we know these are saints who have died, now in God's presence, actively praying concerning what is happening on earth.

b. Prayer is simply talking to God. Angels can talk to God, and therefore angels pray. We will communicate with God in heaven, and therefore we will pray in heaven, presumably more than we do now, not less. Our prayers will be effective given our righteous state (James 5:16).

c. The burden of proof lies on those who would argue saints in heaven cannot or do not pray for those on earth. On what biblical basis would we conclude this?

Rev. 5:8 speaks of the "prayers of the saints" in a context that may include saints in heaven, not just on earth. In any case, if saints are allowed to see some of what transpires on earth, and clearly they are, then it would seem strange for them not to intercede for them. (While we are not told angels pray for people, neither are we told they do not.)

It's a question of assumptions. If we assume heaven is a place of ignorance of or disinterest in earth, then we will naturally assume those in heaven couldn't or wouldn't pray for people here. In contrast, if we believe it is a place of interest in and observation of God's program and people on earth, and where the saints and angels talk to God, then we would naturally assume they do pray to God for those on earth. This is my assumption.

("Rethinking Our Beliefs About Heaven"; see his related article, entitled Awareness in Heaven of Events on Earth?)

James White loves the great American Protestant theologian Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758). For example:

Getting to Know Jonathan Edwards

When I was in seminary I had the wonderful opportunity of writing a paper on the theology of Jonathan Edwards on the sovereignty of God. It was one of the most exciting studies I did at that time. The "Edwards" field is huge, with many modern writers and speakers addressing the topic.

. . . brilliant, godly, Scripturally sound men like Edwards, or Spurgeon, or Warfield . . . [ link ]

I think this represents a scandalous lack of understanding of the deeper, more meaningful works of Calvin, Edwards, the entire body of the Puritans, Bunyan, Spurgeon, Warfield and any number of modern writers. [ link ]

Is it not very clear that the reason we produce Spurgeons and Edwards and Bunyans and the like is because we have a fundamentally different view of Scripture? [ link ]

Men like Spurgeon and Edwards and Warfield and Machen and Sproul, defenders of the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the crucifixion . . . [ link ]

The gospel preached by the Reformers, the gospel of Paul preached wit h such power by men like Edwards and Spurgeon. [ link ]

I feel like reading some Edwards or Spurgeon or something just to wash my mental mouth out . . . [ link ]

But Jonathan Edwards would wholeheartedly agree with me on this general point of awareness of saints in heaven, of the earth, and disagree with James White:

There can be no doubt but that the saints in heaven shall see the flourishing and prosperity of the church on earth; for how can they avoid it, when they shall be with the King himself, whose kingdom this church is, and who as King manages all those affairs? Shall the royal family be kept in ignorance of the success of the affairs of the kingdom?

. . . doubtless they are not ignorant of the flourishing of the church here on earth.

. . . why should their knowledge of the affairs of Christ's kingdom on earth cease, as soon as Christ was ascended?

The saints in heaven are under infinitely greater advantages to take the pleasure of beholding how Christ's kingdom flourishes than if they were here upon earth . . . They can see the wise connection of one event with another . . .

(Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. VIII, pp. 540-541)

White can dismiss, if he likes, my exegetical and theological arguments as the raving of an unregenerate, ignorant Catholic apostate (that's what he thinks of me), but surely he can't dismiss Jonathan Edwards so easily.

My Biblical Passages Supporting Communion of Saints: Anti-Catholics Again Show a Dense Inability to Grasp Elementary Logic as Applied to Exegesis

"Mr. Incredible": one of the logical and exegetical giants that populate
anti-Catholic Douglas Mabry's Gojira's Stomping Ground blog.

I never cease to be amazed by anti-Catholic tunnel vision and irrationality. These people frequently miss the most elementary logical and exegetical distinctions, but then turn around and accuse Catholics of the stupidity that is actually descriptive of what they are doing, since their very response literally proves that they failed to grasp the argument made by the Catholic in the first place.

Recently I showed that this was very much the case with even the renowned anti-Catholic apologist James White (whose anti-Catholic polemics are supposedly so invulnerable and unanswerable), who (deliberately or not) distorted my arguments for invocation of saints and presented a pathetic caricature of my very argument to mock and "refute." He was guilty of basic, fundamental logical errors.

In an even more striking and humorous instance of the same shortcoming, Douglas Mabry (aka "Gojira") -- quite possibly -- based on circumstantial evidence -- the author of the notorious "fake blog" done in my name a few years back -- and some of his friends committed the same basic mistakes in reviewing my response to White. I suggest that in the future they try a bit harder to understand and grasp opponents' actual argument before setting out to mock it and making fools of themselves.

But if an anti-Catholic insists on making himself look ridiculous (by no means an infrequent event), I can do little or nothing to stop it except to write posts like this exposing their manifest follies, in dim hopes that they will benefit from reflection on their mistakes and learn their lesson.

First of all, as a preliminary, let me explain again the logical structure of biblical arguments in favor of the communion of saints and invocation of the saints in heaven. I did some of this in my response to White because he often couldn't comprehend exactly what I was arguing for with a
particular argument and often confused my method and purpose, in his rush to show how supposedly "unbiblical" my arguments were, and how allegedly (logically) circular:

1. We ought to pray for each other (much biblical proof).

2. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects (James 5:16-18).

3. Therefore it makes eminent sense to ask more righteous people to pray for us (implied in same passage).

4. Dead saints are more alive than we ourselves are (e.g., Mt 22:32).

5. Dead saints are aware of what happens on the earth (Heb 12:1 etc.), and indeed, are portrayed as praying for us in heaven (Rev 6:9-10).

6. Dead saints are exceptionally, if not wholly, righteous and holy, since they have been delivered from sin and are present with God (21:27, 22:14).

7. Therefore, it is perfectly sensible and wise to ask them to pray on our behalf to God.

In my refutation of White's "review" of my book, The One-Minute Apologist (section on communion of saints), a closely related issue came up that often does in such criticisms: whether God desires contact at all between those on earth and those in heaven (a larger category than simply invocation of the saints). This is a presuppositional issue that is related to invocation of the saints. The mini-argument would run as follows:

A. God desires contact between those in heaven and those on earth (this is a prior, or hidden assumption lying behind #7 above).

B. A is a necessary prerequisite for the notion of invocation or intercession of the saints. In other words, if A is untrue, then B also will be, since B is a sub-group or subset of A.

Note, then, that to support A with biblical examples, as I did, is not at all the same as supporting the full-blown doctrine of the invocation of the saints. Far from it. It is only supporting the necessary prior premise or antecedent premise. This is a fundamental logical distinction. James White expressly denied A above, in these words:

[T]he prohibition of contact with the dead is specifically in the context of people living on earth seeking to have contact with those who have "passed from this world"! This kind of argumentation leaves the prohibition of contact with the dead meaningless and undefined.

This can be annihilated with one biblical example, from St. Peter, who contacted the dead when He raised Tabitha, saying, "Tabitha, rise" (Acts 9:36-41). Who was he talking to? Well, Tabitha, of course: a dead person! You can't get much more straightforward and plain than that. Therefore, the Bible offers explicit proof that we can have contact with the dead in a certain sense, essentially different from necromancy, use of mediums, and so forth. The opposite argument against invocation of saints, then, from this perspective, is as follows:

X. God prohibits and forbids all contact between those in heaven and those on earth (passages against necromancy, occult arts, etc. are advanced as proof of this).

Y. X is a necessary prerequisite for the notion of invocation or intercession of the saints. Therefore, because X is untrue, Y is also untrue, since Y is a sub-group or subset of X. Case closed; there is no invocation of the saints, according to the Bible.

Besides the Tabitha example, I provided many more in my response, that would utterly contradict and overthrow the claim (White's claim, and that of most Protestants) of X:

A) 1 Samuel 28:12,14-15 (Samuel): the prophet Samuel appeared to King Saul to prophesy his death. The current consensus among biblical commentators (e.g., The New Bible Commentary, The Wycliffe Bible Commentary) is that it was indeed Samuel the prophet, not an impersonating demon (since it happened during a sort of seance with the so-called "witch or medium of Endor"). This was the view of, e.g., St. Justin Martyr, Origen, and St. Augustine, among others. Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 6:19-20 reinforces the latter interpretation: "Samuel . . . after he had fallen asleep he prophesied and revealed to the king his death, and lifted up his voice out of the earth in prophecy, to blot out the wickedness of the people."

B) Matthew 17:1-3 (the Transfiguration: Moses and Elijah): . . . Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (see also Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30-31)

C) Matthew 27:52-53 (raised bodies after the crucifixion): . . . the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

D) Revelation 11:3,6 (the "Two Witnesses"): And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days . . . they have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall . . . and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague . . .

These two witnesses are killed (11:7-9), were raised after "three and a half days" and "stood up on their feet" (11:11), and then "went up to heaven in a cloud" (11:12). Many Church Fathers thought these two were Enoch and Elijah, because both of them didn't die; thus this would explain their dying after this appearance on earth. Some Protestant commentators think the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, because of the parallel to the Transfiguration, and also similarities with the plagues of Egypt and the fact that Elijah also stopped the rain for three-and-a-half years (James 5:17).

We must conclude based on the above passages that contact between heaven and earth is God's will; otherwise He wouldn't have permitted it in these instances. The Catholic belief in more interconnection between heaven and earth cannot be ruled out as "unbiblical". One has to try other arguments to refute our beliefs in this regard.

With that background in mind, let's now examine how some anti-Catholics butcher my arguments, misrepresent them, and engage in a classic, downright quixotic example of flailing away against mere straw men:

First, let's take a look at a post ("A Quick Reply to the One Minute Man") from Douglas Mabry himself, who cites my biblical evidence of A-D above:

[in response to my refutation of White's "review"] Let’s take a quick look at his first. His major problem here is question begging. He is assuming something he actually didn’t offer any evidence of, which, of course, is building a case for invoking the intercession of the saints.

Nope. Absolutely not. I'm not question-begging in the slightest. I'm simply producing biblical data that contradicts the assertion of proposition X above (as opposed to trying to prove the whole notion of invocation of saints from this one passage and other related ones). X claims that God doesn't desire any contact between heaven and earth. The example of Samuel appearing contradicts that. I make my intention for this argument very clear in the way I introduced it:

But White is assuming here something that is quite unbiblical itself: the notion that God wants us to have no contact at all with those who have died. Why would he think this? I provided much evidence to the contrary in one of my papers:

So I guess Mabry suffers from poor reading comprehension and logical acumen, since I plainly laid it all out for the reader but he missed it.

What he does offer is if this was actually Samuel or not. That, however, is not the primary importance he should be concerning himself with in regards to this passage.

To the contrary, it is supremely important, because if a Protestant attempts to claim that this was not Samuel, but only an impersonating demon, then my argument (i.e., my actual one, not Mabry's twisted caricature) would be undercut. Therefore, it is relevant to establish that it was literally Samuel the prophet, appearing to Saul.

He first needs to establish whether or not it is even ok for Saul to seek the consultation of the dead or not. Consulting the dead is condemned in the Law, as is witchcraft and necromancy.

I don't need to "establish that because I already believe it. I condemned the occultic sort of "consultation of the dead" in the very section of my book that White was critiquing, that I cited in my reply under consideration. It's not at issue. What Catholics are saying is that not all "contact with the dead, or those in heaven" is of the same nature as this prohibited sort. Anti-Catholics usually assume that the occultic type of "contact" is a category that takes in all conceivable contact whatsoever. But it is not.

Dave Armstrong is either unaware of, or completely disregards, the witness of the Law in this matter. It does not take a brain surgeon to see that. In fact, that would be the first thing that anyone remotely familiar with the scriptures would point out.

This is where the humorous and dense, obtuse nature of this critique starts to become quite apparent (and it only gets worse, folks), since I dealt with this very thing in the same reply that Mabry is critiquing. So now he is mocking me for being a fool and an idiot because I supposedly am "unaware of" the very thing that I expressly address and condemn in the same paper! A curious methodology indeed . . . One is forced, then, to conclude either that:

1) Douglas Mabry did not read my reply in its entirety,

or

2) Douglas Mabry is deliberately lying about me when he writes asinine things like this that are disconnected from reality.

As I always extend the benefit of charity, I opt for #1: Mabry doesn't bother to read what he is critiquing (which is silly and absurd enough, of course). Here is what I cited from my book again, since Mabry obviously missed it the first time around:

A Protestant Might Further Object:

It is not clear how these Catholic practices are any different from the séances, magic, witchcraft, and necromancy forbidden by the Bible. When you come down to it, Catholics are still messing around with dead spirits.

The One-Minute Apologist Says:

Catholics fully agree that these things are prohibited, but deny that the Communion of Saints is a practice included at all in those condemnations.

The difference is in the source of the supernatural power and the intention. When a Christian on earth asks a saint to pray for him (directly supported by the biblical indications above), God is the one whose power makes the relationship between departed and living members of the Body of Christ possible. The medium in a séance, on the other hand, is trying to use her own occultic powers to “conjure up” the dead -- opening up the very real possibility of demonic counterfeit. Catholics aren’t “conjuring” anyone; we’re simply asking great departed saints to pray for us. If they are aware of the earth, then God can also make it possible for them to “hear” and heed our prayer requests. If this weren’t the case, then saints and angels in heaven wouldn’t be portrayed as they are in Scripture: intensely active and still involved in earthly affairs.

(p. 121)

Merely introducing this passage in the way Armstrong has is as desperate as it is humorous.

I'm willing to let readers make their own decision whether the humor and desperation here originates with me or with Doug Mabry.

Comments under this post are equally dense and obtuse and out to sea:

"Scribe": Dave Armstrong's "One Minute" apologies are more like light years of sychophantic [sic] discourses . . . it is funny how Dave tries to impose a methodological prescription out of wicked King Saul's reprehensible act of necromancy...that brother is "reaching".

Gordan illustrates the same exact logical fallacy I have highlighted above: On the Mount of Transfiguration, the most that is proved is that Moses and Elijah are "alive to God" as you said in the post. Again, the question is begged: if the old saints are alive, heck, it must be okay to pray to them. But nothing could be plainer: this passage says not a scribble at all about praying to saints. It doesn't even hint at it.

Exactly! DUH!!!!! Never said that it did . . . see the above explanations of how the larger biblical argument works, and the function and scope of this particular sub-argument.

Emboldened by Mabry's profound critique, "Mr. Incredible" (see photo above) writes a guest post that is likewise filled with marvels of illogical thinking. He cites my use of the Mount of Transfiguration passage, then Gordan's comment on it, and writes:

Amen. One would be hard pressed to find anywhere in the text where either Moses or Elijah spoke anything at all to Peter, John, or James.

That's irrelevant to my argument, which had to do solely with "contact between heaven and earth". But even if the point were relevant, in my other three references to similar events, there is much communication: Samuel talks to Saul, the Two Witnesses in Revelation preach and testify, and the bodies raised from the dead after the Crucifixion "appeared to many" (and it is quite reasonable to assume they spoke and communicated, rather than just walking around like a bunch of deaf and dumb zombies or Frankenstein).

And of course, the opposite is true as well -- you do not see either Peter, John or James approaching Moses or Elijah. It is kind of a Duh thing to build a case for prayers to the saints using this passage when Peter, John, or James didn't actually asked [sic] anything or converse with Moses or Elijah to begin with.

See my logical explanation at the beginning of my post. It's passing ridiculous and ludicrous to accuse me of making stupid "duh" arguments, when the person making the charge doesn't have a clue as to what I was actually arguing for in this instance. Again, we have dirt-poor reading and logical prowess exhibited in spades (pun half-intended).

Scribe then returns for another shot in the dark. He goes after my use of Matthew 27:52-53 (dead bodies rising and walking around):

How one can extrapolate any form of prescription as a modus operandi for communion with the dead from this passage is beyond me.

Me too! Shows the same stupefaction in elementary logical matters . . . There is nothing like a person who is, in fact, ignorant and/or grossly misinformed about something, thinking he is wiser than someone else whom he mistakenly portrays as an ignoramus and mocks and pillories, with condescension. It's equal parts sad and hilarious, as so much of anti-Catholicism.

One would have to foist upon it a prejudicial theological bias foreign to its contextual basis.

Indeed one would if they were to actually argue as the caricature presented here suggests.

[omitted comment having nothing particularly to do with my argument]

Bottom line: this verse has nothing to with Armstrong's eisegetical assertions that would posit a position in favor of his view...

All it has to do with is a refutation of assertion X, noted above. No more, no less.

Armstrong ultimately butchers the Matthew 27:52,53 to arrive at a conclusion that is simply not there . . .

Is that so? Repetition is a great teacher. So let's now go over for the third time what I claimed for the text, and ask whether this was unreasonable or controversial to the slightest degree:

My claim for the passage I cite:

"But White is assuming here something that is quite unbiblical itself: the notion that God wants us to have no contact at all with those who have died."

Passage cited as counter-evidence for White's denial and evidence for my assertion:

Matthew 27:52-53: . . . the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Perhaps these critics can tell me: how does Matthew 27:52-53 contradict in the slightest the claim I actually made for it (as opposed to the imaginary, mythical things these guys wrongly believe that I made)? I don't see how it is even arguable. About all that White and these anti-Catholic cronies of his might be able to do with this is sophistically argue that God doesn't want us to seek contact with dead saints, but does, however, initiate such contact Himself in extraordinary instances and situations (i.e., to somehow distinguish the two as completely different in essence, with one being "bad" and the other "good").

But that breaks down, too, because Peter deliberately initiated contact with the dead Tabitha, when he talked to her and told her to rise from the dead. That is not rebuked anywhere in the Bible (where, alas, was James White to rebuke Pope Peter when he needed to be rebuked and upbraided for his "unbiblical" practices?).

And it is implausible anyway to say that, on the one hand, God doesn't want us to contact the dead, when it is a plain fact that He Himself caused it to happen on at least four occasions, exactly the sort of "contact" that is (morally) indistinguishable from instances of our initiating contact. In other words, the following association of propositions and events do not exactly fit together with all that much coherence:

1. God wants no one to initiate contact with dead saints.

1A. Yet He sent the dead Samuel to rebuke Saul for his sins.

1B. Yet He sent Moses and Elijah to meet with Jesus on a mountain, in plain sight of Peter, James, and John.

1C. Yet He allowed dead bodies of the departed to resurrect and walk around Jerusalem appearing to many after the Crucifixion.

1D. Yet He will send at the end of the age the Two Witnesses referred to in Revelation (thought by many commentators to be either Moses and Elijah or Enoch and Elijah) to talk to many people for three-and-a-half years (!!!).

This is, technically, an argument from plausibility, not absolutely necessary logical connections (imagine how our anti-Catholic friends will distort this if I don't spell it out from the outset), but it still has considerable force. I would say that if #1 above were indeed true, as White and Mabry and anti-Catholics assume and assert, it would be (arguably or speculatively) implausible for God to allow 1A, 1B, 1C, and 1D to occur, as they send a message quite arguably at odds with proposition #1.

To illustrate by analogy, it would be like saying, as a parent, "children shouldn't seek to have ice cream, because that is an altogether evil thing, and therefore forbidden by parents." But then the same parent gives the children ice cream twice a week. Would it really make sense to claim that it was evil for the children to seek an "evil" thing, while the parents themselves provide the "evil" thing themselves, that they told the children never to seek, on grounds that it was wicked to do so? Is that not a radically mixed message, and a bit incoherent?

Likewise, in the present case. Therefore, there is an indirect relation between these events and invocation of saints. But I only claim as much as I originally did: this biblical evidence unarguably, indisputably disproves the claim that God wants no such contact or communication at all.

--no different than the Charismatics misinterpretation and appropriation of the book of Acts to spuriously support their wild-eyed conceptions about the function of the Holy Spirit.

This is no argument, but merely a poor attempt at guilt-by-association.

More can be touched on regarding my misgivings concerning the interpretation offered by Armstrong but this is supposed to be a "quick reply" to Mr. Armstrong. ;-)

I'm sure much more could be written. But will it make any sense at all? That's the obvious question, having seen the atrocious, pathetic "arguments" offered thus far. I struggled with whether I should give these "critiques" the dignity of any reply at all, but they were such classic cases of anti-Catholic lack of comprehension of Catholic arguments, and thoroughly illogical thinking, that I simply couldn't resist.

Watch to see if our misguided anti-Catholic friends respond any further. Will they attempt to wiggle out of the trap they have set for themselves by logic (that I simply pointed out) and make a counter-argument to truly overcome mine, or will they simply mock and yuck it up amongst themselves, in back-slapping ignorant bliss, and pretend that nothing I have argued makes any more sense than their gibberish? You know which scenario I think is far more likely. :-)

I would urge my readers, though, not to just laugh at how lousy these "arguments" are (no one can fault you for doing that!), but to also incorporate the analysis of these "logical whoppers" into your approach when you run across anti-Catholics in the future. Always be on the lookout for these basic errors. What may appear to have some strength at first can quickly be turned around and shown to be completely fallacious and illogical.

* * *

These people frequently miss the most elementary logical and exegetical distinctions, but then turn around and accuse Catholics of the stupidity that is actually descriptive of what they are doing, . . .

One would be hard pressed to find just where I had called Catholics stupid. My reply, as well as those that followed, were directly to one person. This is Dave making a smoke screen by use of dishonesty. Can he point to any one place where I said Catholics are stupid?

Sure, I'd be happy to:

Dave Armstrong is either unaware of, or completely disregards, the witness of the Law in this matter. It does not take a brain surgeon to see that. In fact, that would be the first thing that anyone remotely familiar with the scriptures would point out.

Now, as usual with anti-Catholics, one must become legalistic and nitpickingly ridiculous to even waste one's time playing these word games. Like the JW who thinks he has a great argument by noting that the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible, Doug thinks that because he didn't use the word stupid, I am being dishonest in describing what he wrote with regard to myself in that way. But the remark above qualifies quite nicely: I'm so stupid I don't even know that the Bible condemns necromancy (even though I noted that in the same entry in my book that White criticized, and cited those words).

"It does not take a brain surgeon to see that." In other words, this is a sarcastic way of saying that anyone with any brains at all would know it (i.e., assuming that I am "remotely familiar with the scriptures"), so if I (allegedly) don't, well now, that makes me pretty stupid, doesn't it?, and it follows that I am not up on biblical teaching to the most elementary degree. Yet Doug objects to my describing these words as calling me "stupid" and indeed, accuses me of "dishonesty" in so arguing.

Indeed, I have taken a couple of rebukes (and rightly so) for being infantile in trashing Mr. Armstrong, but unless he is vain enough to equate himself as the totality of all Catholics, his dishonest antics are of an infantile level that I have not even descended.

Doesn't take long for anti-Catholics to locate nefarious motives and unsavory methods in any Catholic reply to their asinine nonsense.

This is how cunning Dave is.

Yes, gotta watch us clever, devious, "jesuitical" Catholics!

. . . and after naming me stupid in about three different ways . . .

In describing how you have densely mischaracterized and misunderstood my argument and have engaged in name-calling and claimed that I am being dishonest, I would describe that as "stupid" any day of the week, because sin is the stupidest thing one can do. I make no bones about calling that stupid, but you try to deny what you really think about Catholics (and myself as one of that species), and if I call you on it, then you immediately claim I am dishonest.

Get a life. I do admit that I was stupid to even respond to your puerile inanities in the first place, but I suppose there is some value in showing a typical example of anti-Catholic "argument."

* * *

And here is Doug's reply, amply confirming my opinion that it was foolish to deal with him at all (what else is new with anti-Catholics? Is it ever otherwise?):

What stupendious [sic], unrefutable [sic] response has Mr. Armstrong given my reply? Well, he simply has a meltdown: [then he cites my two paragraphs above as proof-positive of my supposed "meltdown"]

Coming Home Network Discussion Thread on The Catholic Verses

Some folks like the book. Thanks for reading and the encouragement and a little bit of extra advertising! Every little bit helps, to "bring home the bacon."

The Problem of Silly Priests (Fr. Paul Ward)

How many priests like this do you know?

Reply to James White's Review #2 of The One-Minute Apologist: The Communion of Saints

James White sanctioned rank idolatry by posting a picture of statues of "reformers" (similar to the one above) on the same day that he issued a critique of my book's discussion of communion of saints, and mocked statues of Mary and the saints.

* * *
As it turns out, James White has completely missed my dry humor above (which is all it was). He seems to think I was making an "argument". His words:

James White Promotes Worship of John Calvin!

...or so Dave Armstrong alleges this morning. As an example of his methodology of argumentation (which often includes the, "Oh, look at that issue over there that is completely irrelevant to the point at hand, isn't it interesting?" tactic), Armstrong's attempted response . . . begins by re-posting Dan Borvan's picture from Geneva of the "Reformation Wall" with this subtitle [cites the words above]. For this to be true, of course, it would have to follow that DA has evidence that Dan bowed down to these statues, lit candles to them, prayed to them, and sought the intercession of these men of God. Of course, Armstrong doesn't have that evidence, and, of course, Dan didn't do that, which only shows once again that Armstrong has no compunctions about constructing straw-men.

* * * * *
The Baptist Bishop James White has written his second installment of what appears to be an ongoing series of "reviews" of my latest book. I shall reply in full, with his words in blue.

* * * * *

Under the broad topic of Mary and the Saints, Armstrong attempts to defend Rome's doctrine of prayer to saints.


The correct description is "asking saints to pray, or intercede for us. They, in turn, go to God, Who answers the prayer (or doesn't, as the case may be, if His answer is "No"!). The title of the section on pp. 120-121 is entitled "Praying to saints is wrong" precisely because this is how Protestants describe what we do (since the book dealt with the objections as the starting-point of each reply). If a Catholic says "I prayed to Saint So-and-So" he means (unless he is ignorant of his faith) "I asked him to intercede"; so it is a question of semantics. Just to get that straight right off the bat . . . but 90% of anti-Catholics refer to the doctrine as "prayer to saints".

Once again, we find no evidence that he is interested in responding to the strongest objections to his position, but only to the weakest.

Actually, the point of the book is to deal with (as the subtitle indicates) "common Protestant claims". These may be weak or relatively strong (in my experience, almost invariably the former), but my task as an apologist trying to equip the Catholic with answers to objections, is to meet these objections, whatever they are strong or weak. So if they are weak but rather common, then the degree of weakness or strength is irrelevant to deciding whether to answer them or not.

White, therefore, inadvertently proves that the standard garden-variety anti-Catholic or contra-Catholic rhetoric is exceptionally weak, since the most common arguments from that sphere are pitiful as can be. But he is here to provide us all with "strong" objections, which I will be more than happy to shoot down as well. And (very unlike him) I will actually reply to and refute his objections whenever they are offered.

But despite this, even in responding to the weakest argumentation, the number of circular arguments and simply false assumptions is great indeed.

He can claim this all he wants, but demonstrating it is another matter entirely.

Armstrong rightly lays out the objection: "The Bible forbids communication with the dead. It also tells us there is only one mediator between God and men: Jesus." Exactly, and, if he has taken the time to listen at all, he knows that the vacuous, yet nigh unto universal, argument of Roman Catholic apologists regarding asking a friend to pray for you (this is somehow taken as having relevance to Jesus' role as the sole mediator between God and men).

I kept waiting for the end of the sentence to come; it is incomplete and ungrammatical. Because of that, I'll pass on comment for the moment, hoping he will clarify later in his "review".

The fact that Jesus role as mediator is essentially and necessarily different is lost on those who use this facile argumentation, for Christ has a grounds upon which to stand as a mediator that no one, including Mary, possesses.

No one is denying that, so it is irrelevant, and no point of contention between us.

This has been explained many times, but Roman apologists continue repeating their simplistic argument as if no one has ever responded to it.

We don't disagree that Jesus' mediatorship is absolutely unique and "essentially and necessarily different"; we are saying that asking a dead saint to pray is no different in essence than asking a living friend to pray for us or someone else. It is biblically challenged Protestants who make the rather dumb objection that asking others to pray for us is the equivalent of denying that Jesus is sole mediator. That is where the dense incomprehension lies, and why we keep saying what we do, that White alludes to. The argument, then, boils down to establishing that asking a dead saint to pray is just as reasonable and biblical as asking a friend on this earth to pray. I think I have provided enough biblical support for the notion.

Armstrong's "one-minute" reply is that James 5:16-18 tells us that "the prayers of certain people are more effective than those of others." Of course, what James 5 tells us is that "the prayer of a righteous man has great power." From this, it seems, you can create a direct proportion statement, so that the saints, being perfected, have the greatest "prayer power co-efficient" possible.

Good; White shows that he at least comprehends my argument. That's a start. But as we'll see, he goes off into fallacy-land right away . . .

But please notice, there is nothing in James 5 about dead people praying for us. Nothing at all, in fact, just the opposite.

That's irrelevant to the argument. It only is relevant if one is claiming that this verse itself contains all the components of the Catholic doctrine of the communion of saints. I have not claimed that it does. It establishes the principle that lies behind why Catholics pray as they do. The Catholic chain of reasoning is as follows:

1. We ought to pray for each other (much biblical proof).

2. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects (James 5:16-18).

3. Therefore it makes eminent sense to ask more righteous people to pray for us (implied in same passage).

4. Dead saints are more alive than we ourselves are (e.g., Mt 22:32).

5. Dead saints are aware of what happens on the earth (Heb 12:1 etc.), and indeed, are portrayed as praying for us in heaven (Rev 6:9-10).

6. Dead saints are exceptionally, if not wholly, righteous and holy, since they have been delivered from sin and are present with God (21:27, 22:14).

7. Therefore, it is perfectly sensible and wise to ask them to pray on our behalf to God.

So James 5:16-18 only provides a portion of the entire biblical argument necessary (#2 and #3 above, with #1 implied as the background premise). Other biblical passages support propositions #4-6, with #7 following, based on James 5, provided that #4-6 are established on other biblical grounds. Therefore, it is a complete non sequitur for White to "object" that James 5 doesn't mention dead saints, because it was never my claim in the first place. It's based on his dumbfounded misunderstanding of how the argument works.

The example Armstrong relies on specifically says, "Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves." Yes, he was...and that likewise means he was alive!

Which is perfectly irrelevant, per the above, but (to get back to the land of relevance) Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are "alive" too, according to Jesus (!!).

From this Armstrong recalls the examples of Abraham and Moses who interceded with God, which is, again, quite true. But it is likewise irrelevant since, obviously, they were both alive at the time of their intercession with God.

Another non sequitur, flowing from White's apparent inability to grasp how my argument is logically structured . . . this is so often frustratingly the case when dealing with Bishop White. But one gets used to it after so many years, like a spouse snoring or a child who lisps or whines. One must accept the deficiencies in others and exercise patience.

Then we have the statement,

If, then, the Blessed Virgin Mary were indeed sinless, it would follow (right from Scripture) that her prayers would have the greatest power, and not only because of her sinlessness but because of her status as Mother of God. So we ask for her prayers and also ask other saints, because they have more power than we do, having been made perfectly righteous (according to James 5:16-18).

You will remember that back in the days of the Reformation a common complaint made by the Reformers was that Rome's defenders were sophists, men who tried to look wise while promoting the most amazingly incoherent statements. Little has changed over the centuries. You take the statement that a righteous man's prayers have great power, which is said only of the living, transport this into another context, attach it to Mary (assuming her alleged sinlessness), and then "follows" "right from Scripture" (!!) that her prayers would have "the most power."

Again, the same incomprehension of how my argument works leads White to caricature it and present a twisted version of what my argument supposedly is in the first place, as something he then shoots down (the proverbial "straw man" of illogical argumentation). Also, it is true that here I assumed for the sake of argument that Mary was sinless:

If, then, the Blessed Virgin Mary were indeed sinless, it would follow . . .

Assuming things for the sake of argument means, in effect, saying, "I won't digress to argue that point at the moment [it's almost like a footnote], in the midst of this argument, because it is another topic; we will assume it here and argue it elsewhere." That is exactly what I did. In this book, my argument for Mary's sinlessness occurs in pages 108-109. I've defended that doctrine in much greater depth elsewhere in books and on my blog.

But note how White twisted and distorted the very nature of my argument. This is first-rate sophistry. He is accusing me of being the sophist, and of being incoherent. Yet what I did was completely coherent and therefore not sophistry at all. I assumed the hypothetical (Mary's sinlessness). I didn't argue it in this particular section (one can't digress when one has two pages to work with). But White completely blows it; he doesn't get it. Let me illustrate how he engages in this sophistry with a comparison. This is the structure of my actual argument:

1. The prayer of a righteous man has great power.

2. IF Mary is sinless [biblical arguments having been made elsewhere favoring this], it would follow that her prayers have the greatest power.

3. Assuming the hypothetical in #2 for the sake of argument, it follows "right from Scripture" that her prayers would have the most effect, based on the logical relationship of "more holy = more effective prayer" to "holiest of all = most effective prayer of all."

Now look at how White twists the very nature of my argument in order to mock and "refute" it:

1. The prayer of a righteous man has great power.

2. Assume that Mary is sinless (without argument, biblical or otherwise).

3. Assume ("right from Scripture") that her prayers have the greatest power.

4. Thus, the Catholic claim has no biblical support and is altogether incoherent and circular.

In other words, White wants to pretend that I am making an authoritative, dogmatic claim based on nothing at all. That's why he thinks my reasoning is circular: because he doesn't understand how the argument works in the first place. This recurrent logical deficiency in White's anti-Catholic apologetics (I've observed it countless times over twelve years) causes great flaws to appear in the very heart of his arguments. Anyway, what I was specifically referring to as "right from Scripture" was a purely logical relationship:

From the proposition:

"more holy = more effective prayer"

it follows that:

"holiest of all = most effective prayer of all."

That follows "right from Scripture." This is what I meant. I didn't assume Mary's sinlessness with no argument whatsoever. I assumed it in this context for the sake of argument, while providing arguments for her sinlessness elsewhere.

Then, you throw in the other saints, who now have more power (because the prayers of a living righteous man have great power), and tie it all up with another reference to James 5, and voila! the Roman position. Not compelling? Of course not. It really isn't meant to be. It is meant to have just enough appeal to it to keep the person who wants to believe it in a state of faith.

Of course it is not compelling because this is not the Catholic argument in the first place! It is a pathetic caricature of a stereotype of Catholic faith: what White mistakenly thinks that we teach, rather than what we actually believe.

This is then followed by the constant false appeal to inter-Christian prayers as if they are relevant. "Most Protestants are quite comfortable asking for prayers from other Christians on earth; why do they not ask those saved saints who have departed from the earth and are close to God in heaven? After all, they may have passed from this world, but they're certainly alive -- more than we are!" That sounds so nice, but it is double-talk. Passed from this world = dead to us. Alive to God? Of course. Spiritually alive? Completely. But the prohibition of contact with the dead is specifically in the context of people living on earth seeking to have contact with those who have "passed from this world"! This kind of argumentation leaves the prohibition of contact with the dead meaningless and undefined.

But White is assuming here something that is quite unbiblical itself: the notion that God wants us to have no contact at all with those who have died. Why would he think this? I provided much evidence to the contrary in one of my papers:

A) 1 Samuel 28:12,14-15 (Samuel): the prophet Samuel appeared to King Saul to prophesy his death. The current consensus among biblical commentators (e.g., The New Bible Commentary, The Wycliffe Bible Commentary) is that it was indeed Samuel the prophet, not an impersonating demon (since it happened during a sort of seance with the so-called "witch or medium of Endor"). This was the view of, e.g., St. Justin Martyr, Origen, and St. Augustine, among others. Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 6:19-20 reinforces the latter interpretation: "Samuel . . . after he had fallen asleep he prophesied and revealed to the king his death, and lifted up his voice out of the earth in prophecy, to blot out the wickedness of the people."

B) Matthew 17:1-3 (the Transfiguration: Moses and Elijah): . . . Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (see also Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30-31)

C) Matthew 27:52-53 (raised bodies after the crucifixion): . . . the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

D) Revelation 11:3,6 (the "Two Witnesses"): And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days . . . they have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall . . . and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague . . .

These two witnesses are killed (11:7-9), were raised after "three and a half days" and "stood up on their feet" (11:11), and then "went up to heaven in a cloud" (11:12). Many Church Fathers thought these two were Enoch and Elijah, because both of them didn't die; thus this would explain their dying after this appearance on earth. Some Protestant commentators think the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, because of the parallel to the Transfiguration, and also similarities with the plagues of Egypt and the fact that Elijah also stopped the rain for three-and-a-half years (James 5:17).

We must conclude based on the above passages that contact between heaven and earth is God's will; otherwise He wouldn't have permitted it in these instances. The Catholic belief in more interconnection between heaven and earth cannot be ruled out as "unbiblical". One has to try other arguments to refute our beliefs in this regard.

Sounds like, then, James White is the one making the circular arguments: assuming things but not proving them. I have made the biblical argument. Let him deal with Holy Scripture.

Further, there is a substantive, clear difference between asking a fellow believer to pray for you, and the prayers that are addressed to Mary and the saints. I have never asked anyone to save me from the wrath of Jesus, and yet that is what we read in this famous prayer:

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this reason he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou are more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself, because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased. But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call on thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

Well, of course there is a difference between asking Mary, the Mother of God to pray for us and asking Pastor Doe or Grandma Smith. This is the whole point. We think Mary is the highest creature that God ever made. Everything she is, is because of God's free, unmerited grace. So her prayers are the most powerful of any human being. We could ask God for something, or we could ask Mary to ask God for the same thing. If indeed Mary is what we believe she is (sinless and God's highest creation) then clearly, her prayers would have far more effect than ours, based on James 5:16-18). That's precisely why we "go to her" instead of going right to God (but we can do that, too, anytime we want, and the Church doesn't require us at all not to approach God directly).

White cites this Marian devotion because he knows most of his readers (even more uninformed or misinformed than he is on such matters) will recoil with horror just as he does. But the properly informed Catholic understands the overall Christological context of Marian piety and Mariology.

I went through this fundamental spade work with two other anti-Catholics who wanted to go after St. Alphonsus Liguori by presenting a cynically selective, distorted view of what he taught. They would cite all the flowery language of Marian devotion while conveniently overlooking and not considering the many statements from the same saint about Jesus that are always assumed as lying behind the Marian expressions:

Does St. Alphonsus de Liguori, in The Glories of Mary, Teach That Mary is "Above God" and Can "Manipulate God"? (Corrections of Protestant Misunderstandings of Catholic Mariology) (vs. Len Lisenbee)

White's primary aim is always to play to his followers (preaching to the choir); to find the most "outrageous" things (i.e., from the warped anti-Catholic perspective) that will cause them to think that anyone who espouses such things is a nut and biblically illiterate; in spiritual darkness. But it is absurdly presented so selectively that it amounts to a half-truth, which is no better than a lie (in both a legal and logical sense).

If one doesn't understand the Christological emphasis behind Catholic Mariology (doesn't even try to do so), then one has no hope of understanding the Mariology itself. It's as simple as that. White sees to it that he never presents the full, balanced picture, because that would work against his purpose of making the Catholic look like a nutcase idolater who doesn't even know that Jesus is the one Who saves, etc., etc.

When Mr. Armstrong finds me bowing down in front of one of my fellow believers, rocking back and forth mouthing prayers while fingering a string of beads, and placing a lit candle before them, then we can talk about parallels.

One doesn't have to do that with living people (i.e., those still on earth with us, not having died), but plenty of folks bow down before the grave of a loved one, or at the place where they were killed in a car crash. People light candles in memory of people who died (look at, for example, what happened after the deaths of John Lennon and Princess Diana, or, for that matter, 9-11). I've seen many people kiss dead bodies in caskets. They are no longer there; it's just a dead body. So is that some abominable idolatry too? There are plenty of statues of people we regard as heroes.

Humorously enough, on the very same day that White issued this critique, he posted a picture of "the famed Reformation Wall'" in Geneva (see above): huge statues of "reformers" Farel, Calvin, Beza, and Knox. Statues honor the memory of people we admire for some reason or other. Otherwise, why have them at all (just for pigeon toilets?)? If White would get sufficiently biblical, he could bow before one of these statues and ask one of these men (represented by the statue, for a visual and devotional aid) to pray for him, too (assuming they are out of purgatory yet, and assuming they were granted the grace to even get to purgatory). After all, even John Calvin held that dead saints pray for us (Institutes, III, 20, 24), though he denied (without reason and against the evidence of Scripture) that they observed what happened on the earth or should be asked to pray.

I'd much rather see Mr. White rocking back and forth in a rocking chair with an introductory textbook to logic. Most of the prayers of the Rosary are straight from the Bible: the "Hail Mary" was uttered by an angel of God, Gabriel (Luke 1:28). The next part of the Rosary was uttered by Elizabeth, and recorded in Scripture (Luke 1:42). Would White counsel Christians to refrain from praying biblical prayers that came from the mouth of an angel and from Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist? That would be odd. But this is just another of White's tactics to divert attention from my actual apologetic that he is supposedly "refuting". For more on the Rosary, see my paper, Reply to Questions About Catholic Mariology (and the Rosary) From a Recent Convert (+ Discussion).

But then we find the paragraph that drew my attention to this section. I quote it in full:

If it is objected that the dead saints cannot hear us, we reply that God is fully able to give them that power -- with plenty of supporting biblical evidence: 1) the "cloud of witnesses" that Hebrews 12:1 describes; 2) in Revelation 6:9-10, prayers are given for us in heaven from "saints"; 3) elsewhere in Revelation an angel possesses "prayers of the saints" and in turn presents them to God; 4) Jeremiah is described as one who "prays much for the people" after his death in 2 Maccabees 15:13-14. The saints in heaven are clearly aware of earthly happenings. If they have such awareness, it isn't that much of a leap to deduce that they can hear our requests for prayer, especially since the Bible itself shows that they are indeed praying.

(p. 121)

Let's examine this argumentation. First, the objection would be based upon a lack of biblical evidence, along with the positive biblical prohibition against contact with the dead.

We have seen how there is a quite permissible "contact with the dead" of some sort illustrated in the Bible, by four explicit, undeniable examples. I have condemned what is not permitted, right along with White, in the same section he is critiquing:

A Protestant Might Further Object:

It is not clear how these Catholic practices are any different from the séances, magic, witchcraft, and necromancy forbidden by the Bible. When you come down to it, Catholics are still messing around with dead spirits.

The One-Minute Apologist Says:

Catholics fully agree that these things are prohibited, but deny that the Communion of Saints is a practice included at all in those condemnations.

The difference is in the source of the supernatural power and the intention. When a Christian on earth asks a saint to pray for him (directly supported by the biblical indications above), God is the one whose power makes the relationship between departed and living members of the Body of Christ possible. The medium in a séance, on the other hand, is trying to use her own occultic powers to “conjure up” the dead -- opening up the very real possibility of demonic counterfeit. Catholics aren’t “conjuring” anyone; we’re simply asking great departed saints to pray for us. If they are aware of the earth, then God can also make it possible for them to “hear” and heed our prayer requests. If this weren’t the case, then saints and angels in heaven wouldn’t be portrayed as they are in Scripture: intensely active and still involved in earthly affairs.

(p. 121)

To reply, "Well, God is fully able to give them that power" is not, in fact a response. Of course God can do so. God has all power, and since that is not a point in dispute, this is a classic example of a red herring. If God had wanted to arrange things so that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces, and so that saints intercede on our behalf in a Christianized pantheon of gods in heaven, He could have done that. The question is not "does God have the power to do so," the question is "has God done so?"

There is indeed biblical evidence for this. The Bible plainly teaches us these things:

1. Dead saints are alive.

2. Dead saints are aware of earthly affairs.

3. Dead saints have specifically come back to earth and have had contact with human beings.

4. Dead saints pray for us in heaven.Those things are beyond dispute. They're explicitly biblical.

White seems to deny #4 ("saints intercede on our behalf in a Christianized pantheon of gods in heaven"). He describes this as an example of a red herring and denies that God has brought this state of affairs about. But he is contradicted by the explicit example of Revelation 6:9-10, that I cited in the very paragraph he noted in his own critique. It is a curious methodology that ignores explicit biblical proofs while wishfully fancying that there are none:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"

As I explained in my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (pp. 113-114):

Here the martyrs in Heaven are uttering what are known as "imprecatory prayers." These are not so much vengeful as they are a plea for, and recognition of, God's role as the wrathful Judge who will rescue and vindicate the righteous, either in this life or the next. Examples can be found particularly in the Psalms (35, 59, 69, 79, 109, 139) and in Jeremiah (11:18 ff., 15:15 ff., 18:19 ff., 20:11 ff.).

An angel offers up a very similar prayer in Zechariah 1:12. Jesus mentions a type of this prayer in Matthew 26:53, in which he states that he could have prayed to the Father and received legions of angels to prevent His arrest, had it been the Father's will. The idea is the same: prayer for judgment to be wrought upon the enemies of God. At the same time, imprecatory prayers often are intercessions on behalf of the righteous, as in this passage.

Therefore, unarguably, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth. If they can intercede for us, why should we not ask for their prayers? Clearly, they are aware of what is happening on earth, as indicated in this passage and, for instance, Hebrews 12:1. They are more alive, unfathomably more righteous, and obviously closer to God than we are. Omniscience is not required for them to hear our prayers, as is often charged. Rather, we have reason to believe that they are out of time, and therefore not subject to its constraints. We ought to ask for their prayers just as we would ask for the intercession of a fellow Christian on earth, and, if James 5:16 is true, their prayers will have incomparably more effect.

The well-known Protestant New Bible Commentary, [footnote 110] states that this plea in Heaven is indeed a prayer, which quickens the end of the age (8:1-5). This admission is of immense significance for our topic. For if the prayers of dead saints have such an importance regarding the last days and the final judgment, who can deny that such prayers are valid and effective with regard to far more mundane matters (such as our everyday concerns)? The doctrine of Communion of Saints, then, would appear to be irrefutably presented in the book of Revelation.

110 Guthrie, ibid., 1289. Concurring in this opinion is Jamieson, Robert, Andrew R. Fausset, & David Brown, Commentary on the Whole Bible, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1961 (orig. 1864), 846, 1547.

Is it true that the Bible doesn't explicitly state that we should ask these same dead saints to pray for us? Well, yes and no. It's not absolutely explicit, yet the Bible does present angels in heaven having something to do with "prayers of the saints". I presented this also in A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (p. 112):

Revelation 5:8: "The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

Revelation 8:3-4: "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

It is somewhat unclear whether the twenty-four elders in this scene are angels or men, and commentators differ. Early Christian Tradition associated them with the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve Apostles, representing the churches of the Old and New Covenants, respectively (see Isa. 24:23; Dan. 7:9-10). References to them clad in white garments, with golden crowns (4:4,10) suggest the view that these elders are glorified human beings (see, e.g., 2 Tim. 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Pet. 5:4; Rev. 2:10; 3:5,11; 6:11; 7:9,13-14). In any event, in both examples above, creatures -- whether men or angels -- are involved with our prayers as intercessory intermediaries, which isn't supposed to happen if the Catholic belief in the intercession of saints and angels is untrue.

So I ask Bishop White and anyone else who believes as he does: "what are men or angels (or both) in heaven doing with the 'prayers of the saints'? What sense does this make in the Protestant worldview?" Our prayers, according to that theology, go right to God without any intercessory "mediator". So how is this explained? Perhaps White can tell us how it fits into his Baptist tradition. I'll follow the teaching of the Bible rather than man-made traditions.

Now, back to what I was arguing above. The missing "plank" there was an example of biblical sanction of our asking saints to pray for us. I have just presented two biblical instances of creatures in heaven having something to do with our prayers. If they have received our prayers, then it follows logically that either:

1) human beings asked them directly,

or

2) God sent them their way, just as one post office might send a load of mail to another to "sort", before the ultimate destination (back to the original one).

or

3) Prayers automatically get channeled through creatures before they get to God.

In any of these scenarios, intercession of the saints is involved, and White stands refuted from the Bible. It's not just "me 'n' God". Others are involved in the process of prayer.

Moreover, even if these proofs are somehow rejected or discounted, it follows from common sense that if #1-4 above are true (the "chart" further above about dead saints), that we can ask them to intercede, since if they are aware of earthly happenings and even pray for those on the earth, then common sense would seem (at least to me) to dictate that they can, most likely, "hear" our prayers as well. So that is two different lines of argument: one explicitly biblical and the other a straightforward and plausible deduction from explicitly biblical data.

But what kind of supporting biblical evidence are we offered?

The sort that I have just outlined above, that I had already provided in my first book. In the present book, I had only two pages of space to defend each belief, so I obviously couldn't provide the depth that I could in my first book, where, for example, I devoted seventeen pages to communion of saints. In The Catholic Verses I provided the reader with fourteen more pages on the topic.

I mean, if prayer, an act of worship in Scripture, is to be offered to anyone but God,

Asking saints to pray is not the same as praying to them (in the sense of expecting them to actually answer the prayer).


surely there will be overwhelming evidence found in the normative practice of the Christian church, and in the writings of the early leaders of that church, the New Testament. But is that what we find?

Yes. I have provided the biblical evidences. I'm not gonna spend more of my time delving into patristics, as this is, ostensibly, a review of my book (mostly biblical arguments). But it's assuredly there, if White wants to argue about patristic beliefs.

The first text given is Hebrews 12:1, "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." Armstrong assumes that the "great cloud of witnesses" refers to saints in heaven observing events on earth. However, given that this is a transitional statement following the chapter on the faithful men and women of old, it is far better to understand this text as referring to them and to recognize that a witness is not one who is observing events (as in Western thinking) but one who testifies, witnesses, by their life. The faithful of old are the ones who have witnessed to God's faithfulness by their own lives, and, since we have their testimony, we are to run the race with patience and joy. There is no reason, in the context of Hebrews, to conclude that the writer was positively teaching that saints in heaven observe earthly events, a concept that would be completely irrelevant to his point.

Well, that is Bishop White's opinion. He is entitled to it, but he has to argue for it and establish why it is the most plausible exegetical position, just like anyone else. He can't simply expect everyone to accept his word as if from on high because he said it. Many others disagree with him on this.

I have myself found at least three non-Catholic language references that confirm that the element of "spectatorship," which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out simply on the basis of a prior doctrinal bias. Witness is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word martyr:

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 4th edition, 1977; originally 1901, p. 392) defines it - as used in this verse - as follows:

One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.

[Strong's word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 - the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1980; originally 1887; vol. 4, p. 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

'Witnesses' does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer's picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.

3) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (edited by Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; translated and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985; p. 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic source, states:

In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.

To summarize:

White: "There is no reason, in the context of Hebrews, to conclude that the writer was positively teaching that saints in heaven observe earthly events"

Thayer: "spectator"

Vincent: "the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. . . . the vast host of the heroes of faith . . . watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, . . . filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid."

Kittel: "this does not exclude the element of factual witness."

Carmen J. Bryant, an exegete and seminary professor with whom I have had the pleasure to dialogue a few times, notes two of the "many" other Protestants who agree with this assessment (my bolding):

Henry Alford, in his extensive commentary on the Greek New Testament [The Greek New Testament, vol. 4; Chicago: Moody Press, 1958, 234-235], insists that the cloud of witnesses must be onlookers . . . Interpreting marture otherwise would miss the point, he claims, . . . Cloud suggests that the witnesses are literally looking down from heaven. Anything short of this is too “tame.”

Leon Morris, in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, notes the debate over the word witnesses. It is not a question of identity but a question of function. Are they witnesses to the faith, or are they spectators of the race? Morris admits that normally marture is used in the former sense, and “it is doubtful whether it ever means simply ‘a spectator.’ Still . . . the imagery of the present passage favors it.”

I'll go with the three great Greek scholars and two reputable commentators, thank you. If I'm a fool and a simpleton for believing as I do about this verse, then at least I am in good scholarly Protestant company. If five such scholars can be found, I'm sure there are many more, and I need not find them at this time. My point is sufficiently made by now.

White cites the Scottish exegete Marcus Dods (1834-1909) in favor of his interpretation, and noted (fairly) that the Anglican scholar "Philip Edgecumbe Hughes, . . . derive[s] 'observation' from the metaphorical language." So now we have six scholars who take my position on this versus one mentioned by James White and he himself (who is no scholar, since he received his supposed "doctorate" from a diploma mill).

But the point that must be seen is that for the Roman Catholic usage of this text to stand, an equivalency must be drawn between "witness" and "spectator." It is not enough, in light of the context lacking any emphasis at all upon communication with the dead, the observation of living people by the dead, or exhortation based upon such concepts, to merely say it is "possible" to read the text in this fashion. Something much stronger, much more compelling, must be provided than the mere suggestion that "witness" can be taken in such a fashion.

I will accept the informed opinions of the six scholars above who say that the notion of spectatorship is present. That is all that is necessary for the verse to fit into my particular apologetic on the communion of saints. But even if it weren't, it is clearly the case that dead saints are aware of what is happening on the earth, on the basis of passages such as Revelation 6:9-10.

And I hardly think I need to point out, yet again, that Rome has not officially defined the meaning of this text.

So what? How is that relevant to anything at all? See my paper: The Freedom of the Catholic Biblical Exegete.

In fact, some would argue Rome has not officially defined the meaning of any text at all,

The Catholic Church has defined the meaning of seven texts. See the just-mentioned paper of mine.

so for the Roman Catholic who constantly decries "private interpretation," consistency would demand they recognize that their own interpretations do not have dogmatic sanction from their own ultimate authority.

No one said they did. Another of a long list of non sequiturs, or red herrings.

Both Armstrong and Hahn address the same text in Revelation 6:9-11 next, so I will address their comments as time permits.

I can't wait.

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Here is White's "response" (about half of it was devoted to my humorous posting of the "Reformers" statues, cited at the top). Based on his history, it may very well be his only "response". There is always a first for everything, though. Maybe one day White will truly engage in real dialogue with a Catholic. For now, though, this is all we get:

I note briefly in passing as well that Armstrong's response proves that he is unable to engage the actual texts under discussion outside of relying upon secondary sources. That is, all he can do is try to line up commentators on one side or the other and say, "See, my point is possible because these guys say so." But he is not capable of responding to the substance of the comments regarding martu,rwn, qeatai, etc., for this is beyond his area of study. Now, there is nothing wrong with someone being ignorant of the original languages, exegesis, etc., however, there is everything wrong in being ignorant of these things and yet making repeated pronouncements about the conclusions of the study of these fields.

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